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Wednesday, April 12, 2006
Tolerating Intolerance
I never cease to be amazed at how certain bigots in the Christian fundamentalist movement just never seem to get this whole religious-freedom thing.
It seems that to them, religious freedom means that everyone has to play by your moral rules, and that no one can then criticize them or try to ameliorate your bigotry. This LA Times article The "Christians Sue for Right Not to Tolerate Policies" is a must-read on the topic. Now they are suing to end non-discrimination policies, because it is against their religion to tolerate other people. Malhotra says her Christian faith compels her to speak out against homosexuality. But the Georgia Institute of Technology, where she's a senior, bans speech that puts down others because of their sexual orientation. Why is it so hard for these people to understand that you can display whatever bigotry you want in your church, with your kids, in your home-school, whatever, but not at work or in government. Your bigotry is safe in the private realm. However, your bigotry is not safe in the public realm where we all have to get along. Employers, universities, schools, whatever, forcing you to maintain the bare-minimum of civility to your fellow man are not violating your civil rights, they're just protecting the civil rights of those minorities. Why is that so hard to understand? Of course, the second you mention that white separatists could just claim non-discrimination policies against blacks are just a violation of their rights according this argument, they throw a fucking hissy-fit. "What if a person felt their religious view was that African Americans shouldn't mingle with Caucasians, or that women shouldn't work?" asked Jon Davidson, legal director of the gay rights group Lambda Legal. Sorry, homosexuality is not a choice, never has been, never will be. Also, yes, one day you will be marginalized for being the bigots you are, it's called progress. Sorry, deal with it. It will get worse, you deserve it, and one day, hopefully, you'll be ashamed for the way you've behaved towards homosexuals. |
15 Comments:
"Think how marginalized racists are..."
Okay I will.
... I just got a little hard.
That quote, incidentally, says tons about the guy's mindset. Want to bet there was a little tone of regret in his voice?
11:29 AM, April 13, 2006
Ha!
I agree. They don't want to be reminded of the fact that in the future they will be remembered the same way we remember those confederate flag-waving bigots from the 50s and 60s.
After all, they're the ones who want to turn the clock back, and one of those things in our past was widespread and open institutionalized racism. Never let them forget it.
4:17 PM, April 14, 2006
The problem here is that fundamentalist 'Christian' are not actually Christians in the sense that they follow the teachings of Christ.
A Christian Educator
4:09 PM, December 15, 2006
It seems quite discriminatory that Georgia Tech bans speech against homosexuality, but allows speech in favor of it. Being a public institution, how can they justify prohibiting certain forms of expression, even if the ideas they aim to suppress are backwards, bigotted and offensive.
The importance of freedom of speech is that it protects all speech, not just politically correct or socially acceptable speech. If pro-homosexual groups are allowed to preach their messages of tolerance and acceptance, then anti-homosexual groups should be equally allowed to spread their message of hatred and antiquated intolerance. The First Amendment exists to protect all expression.
4:49 PM, December 15, 2006
Christian Educator
That's what's known as the "no true scottsman falacy."
Sorry, they're Christians, own up to your own extremists.
5:24 PM, December 15, 2006
It seems quite discriminatory that Georgia Tech bans speech against homosexuality, but allows speech in favor of it. Being a public institution, how can they justify prohibiting certain forms of expression, even if the ideas they aim to suppress are backwards, bigotted and offensive.
It depends in what capacity she's speaking. If she wants to protest in front of her school (but not on the grounds) with a sign that says "God hates Fags" that's one thing. If she's doing this shit in class? In the student union? Not ok. I think there's a time or place alternative being presented here, that is more subtle than you think. There's plenty of places where she has the right to say these things. On a college campus? Where you have to live and work with people? It's just like a workplace, yes people have free speech outside of it, but you can't go to work or school wearing a shirt that says "lynching black people is cool". There is a good long history of case law on just this kind of crap, you have to do it off of grounds and on your own time.
Free speech doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want, whenever you want. There's a time/place alternative here for Malhotra, she can just deal with it.
5:42 PM, December 15, 2006
"It's just like a workplace, yes people have free speech outside of it, but you can't go to work or school wearing a shirt that says "lynching black people is cool"."
I'm going to bank on the fact that you have no clue what you're talking about. Are you saying how it seems to you, or are you attempting to apply the law?
If you're attempting to apply the law, then you're pretty clearly wrong; a college campus is NOT "just like" a workplace. They're not treated the same under the law, nor should they be.
You can bash fundies all you'd like--some certainly deserve to be bashed--but it's ludicrous to act as though GT is in the right in this matter. Universities have consistently lost cases where they ban one type of speech and support a type of speech to the direct contrary. If we want to complain about something, let's complain about the silly, unconstitutional "speech codes" that liberal campuses are embracing.
If the ideas propagated by fundies are clearly wrong, then let the marketplace of ideas and speech show that. Assuming the people at G'tech are relatively smart, they should be able to discriminate between ideas and figure out what's right. A free speech right carries a heck of a lot more constitutional weight than does a right not to be offended.
9:18 PM, December 15, 2006
Banning intolerant speech does not make it go away it merely forces people to do it in private where it is less likely to be countered by intelligence and insight. It also prevents people from exposing their own ignorance. Do you really want to live next to people who deny the holocaust or hate everyone and not know it because they are silenced by punitive threats. If so, be prepared to see people put into positions of respect and authority merely because no one knows how messed up they are.
You criticize the fundies for not "getting" the importance of tolerance but you only "get" the importance of free speech when it is comfortable speech; tolerant speech.
Are you all tolerant of every belief system? If it turns out that a religious tendency has a genetic basis will you need to be tolerant of every cult that people might be born into just because someone was forced through a combination of upbringing and genetic tendency to be a Scientologist or a Moonie? Get ready to be forced to be tolerant of a lot of wacky stuff.
"Free speech doesn't mean you get to say whatever you want, whenever you want. There's a time/place alternative here for Malhotra, she can just deal with it."
Unless it directly promotes violence or serious crime, yes it does mean that. You "get" to say whatever you want whenever you want and I get to say you are a putz for saying that. Why is that so hard for people to understand. Otherwise, maybe you could inform me as to which grand council of elders is to decide what I can say and when. No one on this planet has the right to go through life without hearing something that offends them.
This is not a workplace where a person's words reflect on the employer this is a university where people come assuming that controversial views and ideas will be exchanged. It is also someone's home for about 4 years and unless the university made clear that students had an obligation to fake opinions which they did not hold through willfully forfeiting their right to free expression, the institute may have committed fraud by presenting itself as a university rather than a private club.
2:03 PM, December 16, 2006
I went to a private university and our speech codes were more strict than at a public university like Georgia Tech since a private university essentially requires you to sign a contract that you'll behave, but I still think even public universities should have the right to prevent really disruptive crap from entering the classroom. Ultimately, you're paying them to teach you shit, and if there's some gay basher/racist/neo nazi whatever tearing it up in the classrooms, it's not really free exchange of ideas, it's just wasted energy and screaming. Further, I think Malhotra's being a drama queen, I'm sure the policy wouldn't forbid you from saying that marriage should be between a man and a woman, or that gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt, it's not forcing a worldview. It's just saying if you're going to express that worldview you should say shit like "fags burn in hell" or use otherwise-bigoted language. I think you guys are reading too much into what such policies forbid, they're not legislating a left-wing worldview, they're just stopping you from having the Westboro baptist church invade the classroom.
There also is such a thing as time/place alternatives for speech, this is very well established in U.S. case law from the very first example of yelling fire in a crowded theater. While I don't know the exact policy of Georgia Tech on hate speech, I assume they don't forbid you from demonstrating in public, or writing these ideas for a newspaper article, saying gays shouldn't marry, or be allowed to have gay sex etc. This is about standing in a classroom and calling people fag or dyke or you-know-what and that's something that isn't valuable, and in this situation, justifiably not protected in a university setting.
You wanna go outside or off campus and do that fine, but in a classroom, in a dorm, in those semi-public areas in which there needs to be a degree of professionalism and collegiality, yeah, you gotta put some dampers on the hate or you'll have students who need constant police escorts around campus.
Further, this post was more than about free-speech codes, these fundamentalists want to eliminate all anti-discrimination policies, because they feel they have a religious right to discriminate. This is true, but not if they want to accept public funds.
4:19 PM, December 16, 2006
There also is such a thing as time/place alternatives for speech, this is very well established in U.S. case law from the very first example of yelling fire in a crowded theater.
Once again, I'll bank on the fact that you don't have any real idea how this works. Speech can't incite people to violence. A student couldn't walk into a classroom and shout "Let's kill all the fags. Here's some spears. Stab away!" That would be speech that is prohibited.
You may have a layperson's conception of free speech rights, but it's pretty clear from what you're saying that you don't really understand the interplay between free speech and limits that can be placed on that speech. As a general rule, people can say whatever the hell they feel like saying in a public place, as long as it is not openly exhorting people to violence (and there's even a lot of leeway in that one).
these fundamentalists want to eliminate all anti-discrimination policies, because they feel they have a religious right to discriminate. This is true, but not if they want to accept public funds.
Actually, all American citizens have a right to discriminate in whatever way they please. The issue is whether such discrimination occurs toward a protected class and supported by the government. Speech codes at public universities crosses that line by discriminating against speech on either side of the spectrum.
If you are certain that fundies are wrong, then why would it bother you for their speech to be exposed in the public eye? If what you are saying is true, wouldn't this just expose their fallacies to the entire world and solve the problem?
4:28 PM, December 16, 2006
Once again, I'll bank on the fact that you don't have any real idea how this works. Speech can't incite people to violence. A student couldn't walk into a classroom and shout "Let's kill all the fags. Here's some spears. Stab away!" That would be speech that is prohibited.
Morris Dees wouldn't disagree with you on this, direct incitement to violence is certainly prohibited.
I don't actually think you and I are disagreeing here. If Georgia Tech's policies do indeed say that a student wouldn't be able to protest against gay marriage, or against gay rights, then I would be against it. I don't think that's what's happening when they're trying to regulate hate speech.
As a general rule, people can say whatever the hell they feel like saying in a public place, as long as it is not openly exhorting people to violence (and there's even a lot of leeway in that one).
I agree, however, I do not think that university classrooms, dorms and student unions are as public as you think they are. Lemme recruit an expert for this discussion, it might be interesting.
4:38 PM, December 16, 2006
What does free speech get you, anyway? It's bullshit. You have all the freedom in the world to stand on the street corner (or internets) and rant like an idiot.
It doesn't mean relevance. It doesn't mean political participation (that requires money, a different form of "speech" that you don't have). So have your free speech. Have the freedom to call people nigger or whater. No one's listening. Al least, no one important is listening. GO ACLU!
4:16 AM, December 17, 2006
I just feel like saying this much. Christians are supposed to deal with that which is within their "family" their "realm". That which is outside of it is God's to deal with. I may not like some stuff that goes on, homosexuality. among other things; but ya know what? If it really is a sin and as bad as a lot of Christians say it is then they'll get it in the end. On that note a good friend of mine was Bi, it kinda hurt thinking he might go to hell over it but I sure as hell didn't abondon him because of it.
10:32 AM, December 17, 2006
I don't think that's what's happening when they're trying to regulate hate speech.
I guess that depends on one's perspective. A general rule the Court has taken is this: free speech and free intercourse of ideas are two of the most sacred rights in our country. Even when people use those rights in terrible ways, it's better to permit those rights than to limit them.
8:25 PM, December 17, 2006
"I just feel like saying this much. Christians are supposed to deal with that which is within their "family" their "realm". That which is outside of it is God's to deal with. I may not like some stuff that goes on, homosexuality. among other things; but ya know what? If it really is a sin and as bad as a lot of Christians say it is then they'll get it in the end. On that note a good friend of mine was Bi, it kinda hurt thinking he might go to hell over it but I sure as hell didn't abondon him because of it. "
Way to go. You only condemned the homo to an eternal fire. I'm glad that you were able to put the bigotry behind you and stay his friend. Hope you didn't have any homo thoughts about possible sexual encounters with him. That'll send you to hell too, ya know.
11:37 AM, December 20, 2006
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