Give Up Blog

Monday, August 07, 2006

Christian Madrasses

The boing boing headline of this story was just priceless, "David Byrne on Jesus Camps: like Madrassas, with less literacy"

But seriously, these sound scary.

There were some perfect sound bites - at one point Pastor Fischer instructs the little ones that they should be willing to die for Christ, and the little ones obediently agree. She may even use the word martyr, which has a shocking echo in the Middle East. I can see future suicide bombers for Jesus - the next step will be learning to fly planes into buildings. Of course, the grownups would say, "Oh no, we're not like them" - but they admit that the principal difference is simply that "We're right."

In another scene a cardboard cutout of George W. Bush, with his trademark smirking smile, is brought out and the children are urged to identify - many of the little ones come forward and reverently touch his cardboard hands.

I kept saying to myself, "O.K., these are the Christian version of the Madrassas (those Islamic religious instructional schools in Pakistan and elsewhere, often financed by Saudi oil money)...so both sides are pretty much equally sick, there's a balance." (Although it must be said the Madrassas provide some regular education and literacy where no other option is available, they do community work that is non-religious...and they take in aimless troubled youth.)

They want to turn the U.S. into the "Christian" version of Iran or Saudi Arabia. A theocracy. The separation between church and state, already shaky with Bush in charge, is under full frontal assault by this bunch - and they are well organized, too. The megachurches tell their parishioners who to vote for, what judges to support, letters to write, and where they should stand on the issues. Well, we all do this to some extent - even in casual chats with friends we attempt to deduce and arrive at a consensus of opinion; a sloppy democratic give-and-take on any number of subjects often gives way to agreement. But this is top-down messaging - no discussion allowed. There's a scene in the Colorado Springs megachurch run by the Preacher who talks with Bush once a week - same deal as with the kids, only most of the attendees are pliant adults.

What is it about Colorado Springs? Littleton is right next door to these megachurches. I think they are 2 sides to the same coin. One breeds the other. The dissatisfaction and alienation that leads folks to join this weird non-"Christian" Christianity (much the same has been said about fundamentalist Islamic groups, that they are a perversion of the Islam of the Prophet) leads down a road to both Littleton and Colorado Springs - and in the sense that they allow the mind to be pleasantly emptied, they are identical.

Between this and Darksyde's science Friday post on the burning of the Library of Alexandria (and murder of Hypatia) I'm beginning to wonder how well armed should I be if I want to remain a proponent of science and godlessness.

It also makes me wonder about how we can be so critical of Saudi Arabia's madrasses that indoctrinate children into believing that America is the great Satan, when we can't even control a similar form of bigoted indoctrination in our own, supposedly tolerant country.

11 Comments:

Cornelius said...

First of all, Byrne is rather ignorant of the concept of a Madrassah as he says:

"Although it must be said the Madrassas provide some regular education and literacy where no other option is available, they do community work that is non-religious...and they take in aimless troubled youth."

First of all, nothing is non-religous in this context. A Madrassah is a religious school, who's primary duty is to spread Islam.

Second, comparing a madrassah to a 'Jesus Camp' is absurd. A madrassah is more similar to a private Catholic school. A Catholic school teaches many things: science, art, literature, Catholicsm.

A 'Jesus Camp' in this context is akin to a mosque. Islam is by definition political, so depending on your mosque, you'll get your equivalent Jesus camp.

Regardless, he is being hysterically premature is saying 'I see can future suicide bombers for Jesus.' Gimme a break. His vision would have to be the future, because wherever modern Christianity is established( Nigeria, South Korea, South America, Philippines), you don't see suicide bombers.

Perhaps that's because in terms of theology and ideas, it's much harder to pervert Christianity, a decidedly pacifist religion, into a one of mass murder. Islam is ripe with passages from God and Muhammed exhorting it's followers to explicit violence.

Cause->Effect

9:57 PM, August 07, 2006

minimalist said...

Actually it's quite easy to pervert Christianity. All you need is a congregation that hasn't actually read the Good Book and relies on isolated passages spoon-fed and pre-interpreted by their preacher. Which is exactly what we see in American Christian fundamentalism.

You really can't get away from the fact that fundamentalists are creating a disturbing blend of Christianity, nationalism, and even the most rapacious extremes of capitalism. I mean, images of fighter jets flying over a cross at a church service? Not to mention the apocalyptic undertones behind our disastrous "support Israel no matter what" policy...

It may not be the "strap explosives to your midsection and blow up a bus" sort of extremism. But on the other hand, we happen to be in command of the most powerful, dominant armed force in the world. Putting that in the hands of an out-of-mainstream religious agenda (even if it's "not as bad" as radical Islam in the same sense that murdering one guy is not as bad as murdering two) is, if anything, a more frightening prospect.

On the other hand, I don't really see that happening anytime soon. Sure, sure, the fundies are actively pushing to train lawyers for eventual high-court positions to push a Jesus Agenda, and things like that. But extremism only really sustains itself in a self-sealing world where one is protected from dissenting views (or even reading one's own Bible). Whether they know it or not, they're pushing their followers to engage with the real world -- which will either 'deprogram' them right quick, or simply prove thoroughly resistant to their influence, having such things as 'facts' on its side (hard to argue for a form of originalism predicated on the fundie belief that the Founders were fundies as well, in the face of actual evidence).

10:53 AM, August 08, 2006

Rev. Dr. said...

We don't have Jesus suicide bombers, that's correct, but we do have Jesus bombers.

They bomb abortion clinics, so...yeah, we do have militant Jesus-terrorists in this country, blowing shit up and killing doctors. Don't try to pretend like you guys are all innocent. Before 9/11 the majority of terrorism in our country was from Christians blowing up abortion clinics, the olympics, gay bars, etc. People always seem to forget about Eric Rudolph and all the christian fundy terrorists.

That and they forget about Tim McVeigh, our very own Libertarian terrorist, although I think he was Christian as well, it wasn't the reason for his bombing in that case.

2:25 PM, August 08, 2006

Cornelius said...

oh please.

How many bombings by fundamentalist Christians have there been in the last 20 years? 10 or less? Your trying *way* to hard.

And your history is shoddy. Since the 70's, the majority of terrorist attacks against Americans and American property has been by Islamists, not home grown people. Do your homework.

7:06 PM, August 08, 2006

Rev. Dr. said...

Do your homework or leave a citation.

What was there besides the first WTC bombing?

In the 70s it was the weather underground, in the 80s and 90s it was abortion clinic bombings, McVeigh and Rudolph.

What were all these Islamist attacks in the US before 9/11 besides the first WTC bombing? I don't recall, and without a cite I think you're full of shit.

Check out the Wiki on anti-abortion violence and the list of terrorist incidents in the US.

I notice the wiki, I think unfairly, doesn't include Rudolph's full set of bombings against the gay bar and abortion clinic, or any of the other assassinations from Christian fundamentalists. However, your assertion of multiple Islamist attacks in the US in the 20 years before 9/11 appears uninformed and incorrect.

10:11 PM, August 08, 2006

Cornelius said...

Your being sloppy.Read what I said:
the majority of terrorist attacks against Americans and American property .

You somehow take this to mean "in America". American government property includes any official American institutions overseas.

I've listed below of just some of the recored Terrorist attacks against Americans and American interest. And this list only includes Americans that were killed directly because they were American. There's scores of other incidents.

Either way, your flat wrong. Your wiki link misses a number of incidents, the CIA shooting by a Pakistani national for instance. But the bottom line is, the evidence overwhelmingly supports the fact that Islamist terror is a far greater concern than any other.

Your wiki link, not exactly authorative, counts 7 dead over 10 years. Thousands of Americans have been killed by Islamists, simply because they are American. If they had their way, America would be wiped of the face of the map. So it isn't from lack of trying.

But as is typical of people who refuse to acknowlege the truth, or simply have a chip on their shoulder against someone or something, you will simply ignore all the factual, statistical evidence supporting the fact that Islamists want to destroy America and focus, fetish like, on a handful of incidents by 'Christians'.

Are you familiar with the term 'useful idiot'?

----------------------------
Iranian takeover of American Embassy in Iran, 1979

Beruit, 243 Marines killed by Car Bomb.

Beruit, 1984, William Buckley kidnapped and killed by Hezbollah.

Beruit, 1984, Car bomb at American Embassy kills 21.

Aukar, Lebanon, 1984, Islamic Jihad detonates car bomb at US Embassy annex, kills 2 US servicemen.

TWA Flight 847, Plane is hijacked, US servicemen Robert Stetham is shot, body dumped onto tarmac.

1985 cruise ship Achile Lauro is hijacked, Robert Klinghoffer is murdered.

1986 Berlin, Germany a nightclub frequented by us servicemen is bombed, kills 2 soldiers. Lybian invovement is discovered.

1988 Tyre, Lebanaon, Col. William Higgins is kidnapped and hanged by Hezbollah.

November 8, 1991, Beirut, Lebanon. A 100-kg car bomb destroyed the administration building of the American University in Beirut, killing one person and wounding at least a dozen.

January 25, 1993, Virginia, United States. A Pakistani gunman opened fire on Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) employees standing outside of the building. Two agents, Frank Darling and Bennett Lansing, were killed and three others wounded.

February 26, 1993, New York, United States. A massive van bomb exploded in an underground parking garage below the World Trade Center in New York City, killing six andRamzi Ahmed Yousef wounding 1,042.

March 8, 1995, Karachi, Pakistan. Two unidentified gunmen armed with AK-47 assault rifles opened fire on a U.S. Consulate van in Karachi, killing two U.S. diplomats, Jacqueline Keys Van Landingham and Gary C. Durell, and wounding a third, Mark McCloy.

February 23, 1997, New York, United States. Ali Hassan Abu Kamal, a Palestinian teacher, opened fire on the 86th-floor observation deck of New York City's Empire State Building, killing killing a Danish national and wounding six others before shooting himself to death. A handwritten note carried by the gunman claimed this was a punishment attack against the "enemies of Palestine."

1998 Bombing of American Embassies, Africa

9:28 AM, August 09, 2006

minimalist said...

Funnily enough, Rev. Dr. has been consistent all along in being clear that he was talking about terrorism on home soil:

They bomb abortion clinics, so...yeah, we do have militant Jesus-terrorists in this country, blowing shit up and killing doctors. Don't try to pretend like you guys are all innocent. Before 9/11 the majority of terrorism in our country was from Christians blowing up abortion clinics, the olympics, gay bars, etc.

It's you who shifted the focus in tryng to save face. And terrorism in war-torn foreign lands, especially those we'd been meddling extensively with (often violently), several of those instances occurring during the height of the 80s Beirut conflict? Gimme a break, talk about stacking the deck. Yes, I can't imagine why domestic nutcase terrorists aren't leaving the country and attacking our embassies in Surinam or wherever.

Fact is, we're more in danger on our own soil from fundamentalist fanatics than from terrorists. What big "terror plots" in the US have been foiled recently? The two big ones basically consisted of loose groups without weapons or even real plans -- the equivalent of Muslim stoners who pretty much sat around their apartments saying "DUUUUUDE, like, what if we could flood the Holland Tunnel?" Meanwhile, domestic terror groups have been found with terrifying stockpiles of weapons -- including a potentially very destructive chemical weapon.

Are you familiar with the term 'useful idiot'?

Yeah, they vote Republican no matter what, and tend to have tendon-tearing knee spasms whenever someone says "ISLAMISTS!" Somehow they believe that the nasty Islamists are making entirely unprovoked attacks and not responding to decades of unnecessary, incompetent, and flat-out useless meddling in Middle East affairs by conservative retards (who must nevertheless seem like intellectual titans to the conservative ruck and rabble, since they are marginally more capable of tying their own shoes at least).

Somehow they think that violence doesn't feed on itself, and that once we Kill All The Bad Guys, the world will be safe. Never mind that the nature of the enemy we're facing is driven by fears of persecution (whether justified or not), and so every US or Israeli missile that accidentally hits a residential zone makes more grieving widows/parents/children who are easy to convince that the US is the enemy. Look how massively the insurgency has grown in Iraq. Look what Israel's hamfisted approach to Lebanon is doing.

Yet they keep voting people into office who advocate a "kill 'em all" policy, thus ensuring that terrorism will proceed ad infinitum. AND they believe that the Republicans will therefore keep them "safe!"

That's my definition. I'm sure anyone else with an adequate sense of history has a similar one.

10:09 AM, August 09, 2006

Anonymous said...

What big "terror plots" in the US have been foiled recently?

Read the news today dipshits?

12:54 PM, August 10, 2006

Rev. Dr. said...

Umm, why can't you see the words "in the US." I think we've been explicit this whole time about this happening "in the US." The terror plot today was foiled in Britain, making it the second plot they've nailed in the planning stage, and both of their groups were more serious than that bunch of dumbasses they caught in Florida.

So, I'm afraid it is you who are the dumbass on this one.

And, you definitely don't want the discussion to leave the country. I think the assertion was made that Christianity is a religion of peace and that is why all this violence is coming from Islamicists? Well, once we leave our happy borders we have lots of Christian terror to choose from, from the crusades, to the inquisition, to the freaking IRA. What religion did you thing those guys belonged too? Or are Catholics not Christian?

6:49 PM, August 10, 2006

Anonymous said...

The IRA is a nationalist organization. They have never invoked the pope in their struggle, hence the name IRISH REPUBLICAN Army. I made the important words big for you so that you can absorb the founding principles of the IRA. Catholiscm has nothing to do with it.

Your obviously neither a Dr, or a Reverend , but most definitely are an idiot.

Keep your head, ostrich like, in the sand. It makes no difference.

-Cornelius

1:15 PM, August 13, 2006

Rev. Dr. said...

Wow, didn't notice Corny had come back to this one.

The great irony is that I have my head in the sand when I suggested the basis of the IRA terrorism was fundamentally a religious one.

Hmmm, someone is ignoring a multi-century war between protestants and catholics, I'd call that a head in the sand. Anyone who doesn't understand that basic conflict is pretty hopeless. Are we really to believe the big problem with the IRA is they just hate the british? Not centuries years of sectarian strife for catholic rule over a catholic country?

2:19 PM, September 08, 2006